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You are very funny man, you wrote..,"I didn't wanted to be selfish person who is married to a women.."
Do you think this is not being SELFISH when you are GAY and trying to marry a women?

YES - IT IS SELFISH !!!

Who gave you right to marry this girl and make her unhappy, to make her life misrable? your money? your social possition? who, tell us?
Did you want to tell her that you are GAY?
The answer is NO -so dont make her life hell,dont make her (u2) unhappy, YOU HAVE NO RIGHT TO DO SO.
Thank Gods she was rude, and you broke up with her(as you say), Im sure that Gods looked after her because of her rudness - and kept her out from you !!

One more thing, you wrote.."I was in intense pressure, at one side there was my granny who has always loved me so much and its time for me to do something for her and at the other end "I am gay".
- good that you wanted to do something for HER LOVE to you, BUT..... introducing that (any) GIRL to your granny as your "LOVE",or future WIFE or even fiance -its plain LIE, you would LIE to your granny? Thats what you want to do to her after her BIG LOVE to you?

LIES,LIES,LIES?

SHAME ON YOU !!!

Remember one thing,

WHAT GOES AROUND,COMES AROUND

Manav, thanks for sharing the letter from your friend. None of us are perfect and all have our own demons to confront. We take small steps at opening up to our friends and family. Many likely have an inner knowing while others are clueless. Ultimately for your friend, as well as yourself, it is your life. To be truly honest with yourself, live your own life, not that of others. If you are truly happy, then I am sure any caring parent will be happy with this. Here in North America it is the case anyway and a long way from what it used to be years ago. Thanks for sharing!

Before I close, have a look at my latest posts. I hope to have some new ones soon. - Volker

kelek,

There is nothing I can say its wrong in whatever you said. But there are few other ways to look at our friend's plight, other than the rigid view you presented.

He knows he is gay, yet he is willing to give up his gay life for the happiness of his granny, his family, and his to-be-wife.... he said he even gave up any gay related activities, like reading this blog, while he was engaged to the girl. This is NO selfish act in my opinion. It is a SUPREME SACRIFICE!!

While the girl seems to know that our friend is gay and she wanted to marry him only because of his social status and his money. Our friend, it seems in her eyes, is just a loaded husband whom she can control. That is worse than SELFISHNESS!!

Again, speaking of lies, there are many men who will 'NOT LIE' about their sexuality, BUT force her to have sex whenever he wants, beat her up and asked her parents for large amount of money as 'dowry'. While trying not to defend my friend I must however say that 'the lie' my friend offers, to take care of her for life and love her in his capacity, is much better than 'the truth' some real men offers as mentioned above.

As for lying to his granny, i think our friend was very sincere when he told his granny that the girl was going to be his wife and later his love..... that's what people do in any arranged marriage in India.... they first marry and love develops!!! (I have a feeling this is news to you)... So what my friend is gay! he is willing to sacrifice everything for her. Also if he told the truth to his granny that he is gay she might die saying why he ever told her that.... that would be an even bigger burden to carry for life since he loves his granny very much.

You have to remember India is not a gay friendly country like the US etc.... For God's sake being gay is punishable under the law here. But even in the US you find many who marry girls despite being gay. So, you have to understand his inability to declare himself gay and live the life he wants in this country.

Yes, you rightly pointed out that what goes around, comes around.... KARMA!!.... so I'll advice constrain before declaring SHAME on somebody as a knee jerk reaction.

Thank you very much for expressing your opinion here, though. I hope this debate will go further.

Volker,

thanks for your kind words and understanding. There is nobody who doesn't want to live a truthful life, but sometimes it is impossible. Well, parents here are caring too. But they, middle class families like mine and my friend's in the post, usually spent their entire incomes on their children.... all they asked in return is to see their children settle down in life with a family of their own. They don't want their children to be an outcast of the society. HOW CAN ANYBODY SAY "NO" TO THAT?

talking again about the GIRL, she cant be selfish becasue she didnt know he is GAY !! one more thing, if you call her selfish, so you can say that about every gril in India who is getting maried to reacher guy that she is.

I will always say that he is a LIER, and SELFISH because he want to marry that girl only to please his granny. To express "LOVE" (I guess he doesnt know meaning of it),to his granny. He can do it in different way.

You (Manav) said, that he is not selfish becasue he want to stop seeing man, going on gay web sites etc, YES, SURE but it will happen for a while, one year, two, maybe five. Some day his gay nature will come up again much stronger than now and he will put his entire family at huge risk.

Short story of mine, I remember did something similar, I decided not have a sex with men, because Im 100% gay, I decided to not to have a sex at all(because of my religion), not to watch porns,gay web sites - nothing!! I was sucesfull for a while, than one day i forgot about all of it and had sex with a man I just met. Since than I was horny like hell, thinking about nothing else - as you see my nature came up again!!
With him will be the same, same day he will start to have a sex with me again and as I said before, he will put at health risk his entire family. This is not selfish right?

Thank you for advising me about the SHAME, yeah, I know what Im talking about!! This is SHAME !!
and as for me?... I do everything (not always sucesfull), not to be ashamed of what i did and be able to look at myself in the mirror !! Can he?

Manav, improvements in people's attitudes took a long struggle to come about even here in North America. This will come to India as it will to the rest of the world but not overnight. When people are open, far less judgemental of others, we will all make great strides to improve the human condition. Then regardless of race, skin colour, language, sex, sexual orientation or physical condition we will all get along to decide differences as true adults with reason and logic with positive emotion thrown in. That is my wish for the human condition! - Volker

I had read somewhere in your past posts that you see yourself married to a girl after so and so years. Now that you've have seen what marrying a gal could do to a gay guy, are you still feeling the same way? Would you succumb to the social and parental pressure just like your friend did? Or would you be showing the courage to take the wise decision?

Nishant here..

Well first of all thanks Manav for expressng my feelings on your blog and understanding my situation and also defending me.

Kelek- i understand your judgement, and i agree that in your point of view i might be a lier, selfish and a shameless person. As you questioned me, whether im able to look my self in mirror?
I say yes. I have never done any thing in my life that i should be ashamed of. When i was in a relationship with this girl, i not just gave up my gay things but i also started taking care of her. She was my responsiblity and she was going to be dependent on me.
If you ask me about my love towards my granny? I dont have to justify that to anyone. She knows how much i love her. She passed away this month and now she knows everything.
Anyways, every person is right on his point of view. But ya i do accept that i have no right to marry a girl but as my dear friend Manav mentioned, in India being gay is a crime and punishable. And people and society dont except gays positively here. I am not trying to prove that i am right, its the situation that makes a person chose his decission. I hope you understand what me and Manav are trying to explain.

Hi guys:
Lot of heated debate. I see a cultural cross-talk here. I will pick up a couple of sentences to make the point. haliaeetusguys says,"When people are open, far less judgemental of others, we will all make great strides...". I think this is a very very important point that we should not overlook in this debate. In the west, particularly in the US, people are far less judgemental of others. This brings a tremendous amount of FREEDOM to an individual's life. I do not have to live thinking all my life what my mom, dad, granny, friends and family will think of me, or how they will judge me. Because they will not judge me, mostly. That is real liberation for an individual. This applies not just in the conext of being GAY OR NOT. This applies to every aspect of life: what we do, who we become, how we live, whom we maryy, how we raise our kids etc. etc. To my fellow Indians: To me freedom means freedom from the BINDING traditions of the family, community and society also. I am not saying this is always achievable in practice, but conceptually that's what it should be.

The second point is about MARRIAGE. On an average, the way marriage is seen in the west and India are very different. (Anyone interested in a more through discourse on the topic are advised to read Sudhir Kakkar, the famous Indian psychoanalyst). As is amply exmplified in Nishant's words,"She was my responsiblity and she was going to be dependent on me." That's how marriage is seen in India. It's not a union between two grown up mature individuals on equal terms. By equal I do not only mean economic equality, which may or may not be the case, but equality as rightful individuals. In India, a girl is first in the custody of her father, and/or brothers, then her husband, and then her sons, or grandsons.

These may not have anything to do directly with the debate on someone being GAY marrying a girl. But these are aspects of Indian culture that I find absolutely impossible to reconcile with, being a 100% Indian myself. Thought illuminating these would bring a new dimension to this very interesting, and meaningful discourse here.

albd

Nishant,

First of all, sorry to hear your granny passed away.

Lets start again from what you have said.."I have never done any thing in my life that i should be ashamed of".
thats another LIE !! There is no person on this world - who didnt make anything wrong, or something to be ashamed of !!
Another LIE? lets look at this way, you are 100% GAY trying to live against your NATURE, lets say MOTHER NATURE made you GAY, and now you trying to change it? trying to live straight life? - Man you are always gonna be GAY !! even if you marry 100 of women and have 100 children. Also, dont lie to yourself - you can change it!! YEs, you can for a while, year or more, but some day your GAY NATURE will come back wheather you want or not !!

Talking again about your former girlfriend, you didnt care about her, you looked at your own bussines, not hers - you know that !! You found that girl to introduce her to your granny as "future love", you didnt find her just because you love her, or want to help her, and I repeat again - you didnt tell her that you are GAY !! so thats a BIG LIE !! and what you still saying you didnt do anything to be ashemed of ??? Not saying to a person who you gonna married such a important fact - is a LIE, you are NOT HONEST !! Lets have another look in your mirror or clean it before you have another look !!

I will always repeat, YOU WILL NOT HIDE FROM YOUR GAY NATURE, YOU ARE ALWAYS GONNA BE GAY - NOTHING WILL CHANGE IT !!
So please, if you are unhappy, dont make others as well.

I know, I know, you live in India, there is a different live. Look, there are other countries on this world where life is not easier for gays, but they can somehow live in their communites, and are not affraid to be outcast.
You dont have to come out, you dont have to say to all IM GAY, dont say nothing. Live together with them, and nothing will happen wrong to you. You dont have to HIDE behind this poor girls.
Be a man and live your normal live, but dont hurt others becasue you want to pretend you are straight.
Another thing, India is a big country, you can move from Mumbai to other big City and live normal live.

Crazy Sam,

yeah, I remmeber saying that but don't axactly remember when I said that.... it seems such a long ago...... That's because I have met some interesting people after that, past one month to be precise, who are gay like me, willing to give me love, and one even want to spend his life with me,(and I thank him for that)

You can never tell the future, but for now the plan is to be with a guy I love and nothing else. Let's hope my stand will not weaken with time.

Manav,

... lucky you !! Congratulations

I hope, future will bring all the best to you !!

Nishant,

No problem buddy.... No matter what others think I'll fully understand your compulsions to have got engaged to that girl. I, me, anybody... don't say marrying a girl is morally, or in any other way for that matter, correct for a gay to do. Kelek and others can't simply put this as a case of BLACK or WHITE. There are many factors that led one, specially educated urban poeple like you, to take such a decision. To give Kelek some credit, he is very remote from the culture that is prevalent here which is evident when he tell you to move to other bigger cities and live a normal life, becasue Mumbai, as we all Indians know, is the biggest city in India which is least homophobic, by Indian standard of course. But I thank kelek for his perspective.... a very passionate on eat that..... I hope he understand our passionate replies too...

albd,

As always a very insightful and a very balance perspective..... now we also know you are a very learned man :)

Your mentioned of the status of the girl and also kelek's repeatedly asking Nishant to tell the girl he is gay..... make me want to say one thing though.... Even if Nishant tell the girl he is gay the girl will probably say... 'so what as long as you have a penis, can produce children and can provide for them.' Such is the mindset of the people toward gay.... telling them about your sexual orientation will not affect any of their expectations from you, things might even get worse as in ...'he says he is gay, we have to hasten his marriage'

Lol..

I dont think she would do that Manav, that would be very selfish if she did that what you said. Marry to gay man would be good for the girl who hates men, or sex, lol

To be clear, Im asking Nishant. to be a man and not to marry a women no matter what !! He is gay and always will be !!
But if he want to marry her - he must be honest and tell her - LOOK HOMEY IM GAY !!! lol.lol

I realise your culture is radically different from Western society. I also know that the closet is a comforting place to be in such a society with such pressures placed upon you. One day in the future however, you may regret your choices. It is far better to regret the things you have done, than regret the things you haven't done. At least you will know that you tried...that you did all you could do.


"This above all: to thine own self be true,
And it must follow, as the night the day,
Thou canst not then be false to any man.
Farewell; my blessing season this in thee!"
-- William Shakespeare

Nishant here
kelek- when i was engaged wth this girl, i wanted to give her a better life. i knw. u will say “but dude u r gay and getting married to a girl will make her life more worse.”
i used to care for her and used to see to it that she is comfortable whnever we were togther. i knw what love is, and how much it hurts when u cant live with the one u love. so i didn't wanted her to feel the same. she was going to be my wife and she deserves all the love from me. and i gave my 100%.
When you say be a man, and tell the truth. i am not afraid to do that, but it will make my moms life miserable, since she will be known as "look her son is gay". which buy the way is a very embaressng thng in India. so when i decided to live my life as a straight, it was for my mom and granny. i dont feel any shame in that. yes, i do agree to you that i should not marry a girl, but i have no other choce left. may be if in future i open-up to my mom, things may change..
also u keep saying that someday my gay nature will come out, thats true too but its all in one's will power. its been 6yrs since i decided not to be in a realationship with a guy, and live a straight life. and i have never fallen weak towards any guys. i know a few openly gay people and thre r few places for gays to hangout, but i never felt the need to go there. To be honest i did fall in love and i was about to get into a realationship with a friend but i backed out. and again things are normal. its hard not impossible.!

take care..

Hi Nishant:
It was interesting to read your reply. I would like to add a few words as someone who understands your situation, and also that of kelek, having seen both the cultures quite closely.

I am afraid you are still missing the point kelek is trying to make. A marriage is a union between two individuals who love and want each other. That is the central theme of marriage in western culture. Not what your mom thinks, or your granny thinks. Also, UNION is a very important idea in marriage, emotionally and sexually. That's why you marry someone only if you want him/her. And that's why arranged marriage is culturally alien to the west. How can you marry someone when you do not know if you have a sexual desire for that person IN THE FIRST PLACE.

As you know, or have already expressed in your writing, this is not entirely true in the Indian context. May sound strange, but that is it. Of course, sex is important in any marriage, but I have seen many marriages where sex is just a physical requirement, a means of procreating, but does not go towards fulfilling the emotional needs of the persons involved. As Sudhir Kakar puts it, many marriages do not fructify sexually, sexuality having a broad psychosomatic connotation. The way you put it, you can be a wonderful, almost an ideal husband to your wife. But I'm afraid, you can never be a REAL husband. Because if your are 100% gay, you will never ever have that urge to be one with your wife. You can take all the care for her, but your heart will never throb, your body will never quiver when your fingers play together, or she bites your ear. And you will never feel that you can chop off your limbs if you need to do that in order to make her happy, because you will never have that supreme value for her body and being if you are 100% gay. Many girls in India believe that all their husbands can do is to take care of them. If your wife happens to be one like that, you may get through. But if she happens to be LIBERATED, she will call catch you sooner or later. Would that be a very happy situation for you and your family?

Sorry if this sounds like preaching. As you notice, I have many times said "if you are 100% gay". Because research and studies show that sexual preference is not a either-or business, contrary to what many gays claim. It is a continuum, exclusive homosexuality and heterosexuality being two extremes. I know many guys who are dominantly heterosexual, but have had occasional gay experience, and have loved it. When they got married, it was not to LEAD A STRAIGHT LIFE SUPPRESSING HOMOSEXUAL TENDENCIES. They were heterosexual too. You can find the opposite examples also, I am sure. I have also seen guys who shudder at the thought of even playful sex with another guy. My advice to you is, find out where you belong in this scale. If you are 100% gay, feel no attractions towards the opposite sex, all I said above applies. But if you feel that you can be happy with a girl SEXUALLY, it is perfectly fine to get married. It does not matter what kelek, or I or your mom or granny say. What you feel is most important, and in that sense what kelek says is right, "be a man, be yourself."

I would be happy if this helps you even one bit.

albd

albd,

I think your latest comment is the best sum-up of all the views expressed here. Honestly, I was getting confused which way to sway as both sides convinced me they are both right. I think now Nishant and Kelek should agree with you.

Best!

Thanks albd for your explaination.I agree to what you said, and i totaly understand the defination of marriage. It was just i didnt have proper words to explain myself. And you know what, I am thinking of coming out to my mom sooner or later.
:)

Nishant

Nishant,

wow! that would be great... may be that will inspire me to do the same... cheers!

wow manav(i like your name bytheway). Its such a sad thing. Is that your story or your friends?Either way, its very sad. Do you still practice the whole samaj thing?I thought it has been done with. So now are your parents still looking for a new girl or no longer?...Its so sad that its hard to tell parents about this sexuality of people. They imeidately think its their fault etc etc and they wanna commmit suicide. I dont know then whihc is better, being transexual or just gay by sexuality. That girl maybe have not seen your rougher side. Just shout at her once, and see how she takes it. Bytheway, isit hard to find gay men in India?

Hey mate!

It was appreciable that you shared an intense experience of you life here! Although, I wasn't quite moved in the true sense. Still, I hope that you have finally settled down well with your sexuality and wouldn't wander looking for things to make others happy at the cost of your own happiness, which in its own turn will effect the happiness of those around you, the ones you care for and the ones who care for you!